But, I got started in the Civil Rights movement. That’s really how I started political organizing. Then we formed SDS to oppose the war. When I was in high school my good friend talked me into joining the Navy Reserve. Then we started SDS in college. Then in the summertime between my sophomore and junior, and my junior and senior year; I would go to Newport Rhode Island for officer candidate school.

My political beliefs were pretty well formed at that time. I can remember we had a class in which we were supposed to teach a class and we could teach it on anything; celestial navigation, ordinance, this that and the other thing. I decided I was going to teach my class on the history of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam. It was kind of a surprise… we had to clear our subject with the instructor and so I did. I told him I wanted to do the history of the United States involvement in Vietnam. He thought that was okay because it’s part of officer candidate school teaching you history.

Of course, my version of our involvement in Vietnam was not exactly what they expected! (Laughs) It caused a little controversy. That was fun. We just had a great discussion in the class. It was probably one of the most vigorous classes that we had that was student taught. Most of the other classes were on how to use a compass, and how to do mathematical equations, and how to properly aim and fire an M15 machine gun, or something like that, you know?

So, this was totally offline from what they anticipated us doing. And, there were kids in the class that were very much in support of the war. So when I presented my version of how we got there and why we were there, which was certainly not pro-war, that stimulated a lot of discussion. It was good.

I was very happy and proud of myself for having the chutzpa to do it. They couldn’t grade you down just because you brought up something controversial so it was fine. They didn’t throw me out of the corps. However, I think it stimulated their interest in keeping an eye on me because after my senior year, I graduated and finished OCS. All I had to do was graduate from college and I’d go in on active duty as an officer. I was called into the campus police station just before school was start and spent…I don’t know, six or seven hours being questioned by two members of the Office of Naval Intelligence about all my political activities on campus. They asked who did I know, and who was involved in this, that or the other thing.

We were trained to get summoned from the WEB DuBois Club. WEB DuBois was a very left wing political leader and there was a chapter of the WEB DuBois Club in California. I had called their offices and these guys knew about that. So…I was very proud to say I had an FBI file.

I had quite an interesting college career. I spent a lot more time planning protest marches than I did doing my term papers. I learned as much as anybody does in college I guess.

So then, in January of my senior year just before I was going to graduate and about three weeks before I was going to get married, I got a letter from the Navy saying that because of my associations/affiliations and stated opinions that I was dis-enrolled from the Officer Candidate School and considered a security risk!

So, I figured I’d gotten someone’s attention! I didn’t really care about being an officer in the Navy at this point. In fact, I didn’t even want to be in the Navy at this point. I wasn’t a conscientious objector, I wasn’t, you know a pacifist, I was just opposed to this war. So, I couldn’t very well, in good conscious say, I’m a war resister for moral reasons. It was because of political reasons. It was because I thought it was a wrong. Our foreign policy should not be taking us in this direction.

But, never wanting to walk away from a good fight I decided, “Well, they can’t do that!”

As a civilian I have a right of free speech. I have the right of assembly. So, my associations and affiliations should not be challenged by anybody and my stated opinion should be welcomed as part of a public dialogue in this country. So, I found a chemistry professor; good friend of mine, who was in the Unitarian Church and also was a member of the ACLU. Now these are common words for us today but in Okalahoma back in that day in the late 60s you couldn’t find an ACLU member anywhere. It was not just something you walked in to.

So, he put me in contact with the American Civil Liberties Union office in Washington, D.C... They had attorneys that were taking cases similar to mine, challenging the reach of the Uniform Code of Military Justice into the civilian world. Under which body of law did you operate as a member of the Navy Reserve or as a member of the Reserves? Was it the constitution or was it the UCMJ?

So, the law firm of Bridgman Long and Phyatt – and don’t ask me to spell those – they agreed to take my case. But first I had to go through a series of administrative appeals on their decision to expel me from the Officer Candidate Program. Then they filed the lawsuit which took a lot of time.

By the time I finally graduated from college I still had a contractual obligation to serve in the military for at least two years as an enlisted person. I was suing them to get my commission back which, again, I really didn’t care about my commission it was just the principle of the thing. I remember this really strained my relationship with my parents because it was not a thing… I mean, they understood but they didn’t really understand.

Anyway, so then in November I went on active duty. The court case was still going so I am going on active duty as a seaman in the United States Navy while I am suing the secretary of the Navy. That was an interesting experience.

I figured they would never send me to Vietnam because I was a security risk. So, sure enough I went to San Diego to transit and the next thing I knew I was on a ship in the North Tonkin Gulf. Not only that, it was a radio communication ship! So, they had nothing but people with top secret clearances and they stuck a commie right in the middle of the thing! (Laughter)

Finally, the case was settled and for a split second I was an officer and a gentleman. Then I resigned my commission and they never got to prove whether I had the right to free speech or not.

It was just a – they had a whole bunch of cases that they were pursuing trying to explore this whole concept of the UCMJ and it’s reach into civilian life. I don’t know what deals they made with everybody else but they were trying to clear a lot of these things out of the way. So if I would agree to resign my commission then they would agree to go ahead and offer me the commission.

So, I don’t know. I am not exactly sure who proved what to whom. That was an interesting part of my military service. It was about halfway through my active duty service that they settled this. In the first few months of being there I was on the deck crew. I was assigned as just a deckhand on this ship and I tried to get a job in the office because I had a college degree; I could type, and I could spell. They were saying no that I couldn’t have a job in the office because that required a security clearance.

Well, it didn’t and so I am sure they just hated me for this but I wrote my attorneys and said, “Hey, this isn’t right. They have me chipping paint. I ought to be typing orders!”

So, they got a hold of the Navy and the Navy said, “Okay you are right. If he can pass the test he can have a job in the office.”

Of course I could pass the test so I got a job in the office. So, I was handling all the records for all the enlisted personnel on the ship.

In college, I was a political science major. (Laughter) International relations and OSI. I was focused on the Far East; China, Japan mainly. Of course back then it was called South East Asia. I had studied a lot about Vietnam. In fact, I had a professor who we talked to when I was a junior. We convinced him to do a class on Vietnam on the history of Vietnam so we did that. It was mostly run by the students. He, obviously, guided us in our research but that’s how I learned as much as I did about that part of the world.

I did some post graduate work, but first after I got out of college while I was waiting to go to find out what was going to happen with active duty I moved to Tulsa, which is near Stillwater, Okalahoma. I lived there and did all kinds of odd jobs. You couldn’t get a real job because you were waiting to go on active duty. Then I spent about 18 months on active duty and then I came back and then I did some graduate work at Okalahoma State.